Author Topic: Starting Item Suggestion (Read 548 times)

Thoddius · « **on:** April 15, 2016, 04:37:28 am »

I guess my progress wasn't saved during the multiple server transfers, so when I started again for the "first time" on this seed I noticed something that I want to bring to your attention. When a player logs into a world the first time they spawn into a spawn area designated by the server gods. If the world has been alive for a while then the spawn area is not likely to be virgin, meaning others will have run through the same area. Three upgraded wood frames are a dead give away with the new quest system. What does this have to do with starting items you may be wondering, well, on this server you are likely to run into a small to medium sized horde your first day just due to the fact that others have run through the area and the area gets unloaded but the zombies left behind seem to get reloaded along with the chunk when you show up naked and afraid. The first zombie I found hit me once and I was immediately infected on day one. Being that I spawned in at about 700N and 3500E I am along way from GZ to look for a hospital for antibiotics. I did find some honey which states it cures stage one so we need to get the in-game text corrected as it does not affect infection. With this in mind I suggest we start with one antibiotic, like in the old days. One at the beginning isn't a game breaker in any way so I don't see any reason not to have it. Especially when zombies 10 feet under water can still hit you as you swim by, but that is a different issue altogether.

TLDR: I think we should start with one antibiotic, due to players finding left over small hordes in their path upon initial spawn, since the Level 5 safe zone doesn't seem to be in effect.

poppawolf · « **Reply #1 on:** April 15, 2016, 07:10:43 am »

This is actually a good idea. I remember the beginning of A12 I got infected right off the bat and the lack of stamina absolutely sucked.

I think this server is modded so we start out with one coffee (I may be wrong on this, I can't remember), but still that may not be enough. One antibiotic would be good at the start. That way you have it for an emergency as Thoddius pointed out, or you can save it for later.

Speaking of which, is moldy bread a rare commodity now? I have not found much at all. However, I have found a lot of sham sandwiches...and didn't we have a recipe to make moldy bread from them? I think someone already made the suggestion over in the Suggestions section.

A recipe for moldy bread would be a welcome addition, I think.

Ammit · « **Reply #2 on:** April 15, 2016, 03:43:18 pm »

yeah green samiches did recipy to moldy bread, but that seems to be missing now

Patchup · « **Reply #3 on:** April 15, 2016, 04:45:24 pm »

I agree that some starter kit would be good.

The only reason this applies is that spawn areas can be completely picked dry by other players.
That abandoned house you would normally shelter in, for the first night, may have an owner and a locked door.
Your chances at finding survival items is reduced when other people are sharing the same map.

This is in no way a complaint. People join a server to play with other people. Sharing the resources is part of that.
This post is focusing on one specific thing (starting items) at one specific moment. (first spawn)

guest215 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 15, 2016, 05:40:00 pm »

Quote from: Thoddius on April 15, 2016, 04:37:28 am

I guess my progress wasn't saved during the multiple server transfers, so when I started again for the "first time" on this seed I noticed something that I want to bring to your attention

.

Transparent. No need for these types of remarks which aren't a basis for any logical argument or constructive discussion.

Quote from: Thoddius on April 15, 2016, 04:37:28 am

When a player logs into a world the first time they spawn into a spawn area designated by the server gods.

There have always been designated spawn points for players to spawn into the world.

Quote from: Thoddius on April 15, 2016, 04:37:28 am

If the world has been alive for a while then the spawn area is not likely to be virgin, meaning others will have run through the same area.

Most likely. There is also no saying when this was. Depending on when you spawn there it could be possible that no one has entered there in 2 weeks real-life time.

Quote from: Thoddius on April 15, 2016, 04:37:28 am

Three upgraded wood frames are a dead give away with the new quest system.

Ok...? You're saying finding 3 wood frames is definitive proof someone has been there.

Of course it is; however, I don't see how this translates to supporting your argument. Just because someone has been in that area doesn't mean there are going to be frames in every spot a player travels let alone 3 wood frames

Quote from: Thoddius on April 15, 2016, 04:37:28 am

What does this have to do with starting items you may be wondering, well, on this server you are likely to run into a small to medium sized horde your first day just due to the fact that others have run through the area and the area gets unloaded but the zombies left behind seem to get reloaded along with the chunk when you show up naked and afraid.

Argument by assertion.

I would contend you are less likely to run into "more" zombies because, if in fact, people have been playing for a longer time there is an increased probability of them having bases with forges and/or using firearms and are attracting more zombies than you.

Better equipped players are also more likely to be in or near towns/cities and getting more zombies spawns.

Quote from: Thoddius on April 15, 2016, 04:37:28 am

The first zombie I found hit me once and I was immediately infected on day one.

Don't get hit.

Infections from hits are always immediate if in fact the hit causes an infection; it is a chance you get infected/stunned/whatever and not guaranteed.

Quote from: Thoddius on April 15, 2016, 04:37:28 am

Being that I spawned in at about 700N and 3500E I am along way from GZ to look for a hospital for antibiotics.

GZ isn't the only place to have a Pop 'n' Pills and those stores are not guaranteed to generate in the city. They can; however, generate outside the city near say...3500 out.

antibiotics can be found elsewhere then just hospitals or pharmacies.

Quote from: Thoddius on April 15, 2016, 04:37:28 am

I did find some honey which states it cures stage one so we need to get the in-game text corrected as it does not affect infection.

This helps. Wish you had brought this to my attention in a different context.

Quote from: Thoddius on April 15, 2016, 04:37:28 am

With this in mind I suggest we start with one antibiotic, like in the old days.

Specifically when were these old days?

This is a 10.0 entityclasses.xml entry for players.

Code: [Select]

<property name="ItemsOnEnterGame.GameModeSurvivalSP"	value="bottledWater,canChili,firstAidBandage,torch" />
		<property name="ItemsOnEnterGame.GameModeSurvivalMP" 	value="bottledWater,canChili,firstAidBandage,torch,keystone" />

Alpha 10 was November 11, 2014. http://7daystodie.com/2014/11/

You got to this server 2015-10-13.

The point being that was Alpha 12.5 and the vanilla game has not antibiotics as a starting item as far back as I played and that Alpha 5.

It was something I modded as well as grainAlcohol in the starting kit during A12.5 as part of my balancing attempts as the game progressed.

Quote from: Thoddius on April 15, 2016, 04:37:28 am

One at the beginning isn't a game breaker in any way so I don't see any reason not to have it.

Not being a "game-breaker" is not justification not have one. Starting with an AK-47 and 500 7.62 mm rounds wouldn't break the game either.

Quote from: Thoddius on April 15, 2016, 04:37:28 am

Especially when zombies 10 feet under water can still hit you as you swim by, but that is a different issue altogether.

Don't swim when you're low level. Stay on ground where you can more easily escape.

Quote from: Thoddius on April 15, 2016, 04:37:28 am

TLDR: I think we should start with one antibiotic, due to players finding left over small hordes in their path upon initial spawn, since the Level 5 safe zone doesn't seem to be in effect.

This is an argument by assertion. Many assertions.

Quote from: poppawolf on April 15, 2016, 07:10:43 am

This is actually a good idea. I remember the beginning of A12 I got infected right off the bat and the lack of stamina absolutely sucked.

Don't get hit. Fight at range when you're the weakest.

Quote from: poppawolf on April 15, 2016, 07:10:43 am

I think this server is modded so we start out with one coffee (I may be wrong on this, I can't remember), but still that may not be enough. One antibiotic would be good at the start. That way you have it for an emergency as Thoddius pointed out, or you can save it for later.

I have modded in the start package to include coffee and a firstAidKit which replaces the bandage.

The coffee is to help you avoid zombies during the initial period when you may encounter a group of zombies or a bear. You don't have to use it immediately and can "save it for later" just like the antibiotics.

Quote from: poppawolf on April 15, 2016, 07:10:43 am

Speaking of which, is moldy bread a rare commodity now? I have not found much at all. However, I have found a lot of sham sandwiches...and didn't we have a recipe to make moldy bread from them? I think someone already made the suggestion over in the Suggestions section.

Just because someone does not find moldy bread does not mean it is rare.

Quote from: poppawolf on April 15, 2016, 07:10:43 am

A recipe for moldy bread would be a welcome addition, I think.

We do have a recipe to make moldy bread out of Sham sandwiches.

Quote from: Patchup on April 15, 2016, 04:45:24 pm

I agree that some starter kit would be good.

Quote from: Patchup on April 15, 2016, 04:45:24 pm

The only reason this applies is that spawn areas can be completely picked dry by other players.

True, but the loot containers can also be full of loot again as 7 in-game days have passed.

Quote from: Patchup on April 15, 2016, 04:45:24 pm

That abandoned house you would normally shelter in, for the first night, may have an owner and a locked door.

Or it may not...or someone left behind miscellaneous items and bolstered it up while they were there.

Quote from: Patchup on April 15, 2016, 04:45:24 pm

Your chances at finding survival items is reduced when other people are sharing the same map.

True...more true if they are sharing the same local area, however.

My chance of finding frozen blueberries at Stater bros. is reduced as the number of people who shop there increases which could be related to an increase in people in the area.

It most likely change if the population in the next town which has its own shopping market(s) increases.

Quote from: Patchup on April 15, 2016, 04:45:24 pm

This is in no way a complaint. People join a server to play with other people. Sharing the resources is part of that.

Quote from: Patchup on April 15, 2016, 04:45:24 pm

This post is focusing on one specific thing (starting items) at one specific moment. (first spawn)

Which includes the firstAidKit and coffee. These are bonuses I provide to help you survive upon initial spawn.

Also, the zcoin and vote store exist to get painkillers, food, ammo, weapons...

Thoddius · « **Reply #5 on:** April 15, 2016, 07:10:35 pm »

I am about to cry. I lost my window with another wall of text. I am too upset to try and recall it, but it was a masterpiece, I assure you.

The end point I was making was this:
I think an AK and 500 rounds would be game breaking. This is my opinion.
I would like to have our starting inventory include antibiotics. This is my opinion.
In a true apocalypse a beaker will be more rare then a full set of teeth, but I will bet money that at least one house in my neighborhood has some left over antibiotics in it. This is my justification.

Gerick · « **Reply #6 on:** April 15, 2016, 09:35:26 pm »

Point blank, any argument of relative privation is silly to make. It's also silly to make arguments based around what is and isn't a fallacy. It's a game, most of it is based on fallacy. No one sits there questioning why you start with a can of chili, or tries to counteract that with how easy it is to find canned food. No one questions why you have a torch, or a jar of water. That's all relative privation in a game where dying just means a respawn. Those items exist to help you get the lay of the land, and they're balanced for an expected travel time. The previsions act as a buffer to make up the time you are not scavenging or building as you travel.

Come at it from a game developer's side of the equation.

What is the intended starting experience on our server? What is lacking about the starting experience? What are issues introduced, given we have well beyond what the developers designed/intended for in player counts? What social dynamics occur in large servers vs small servers?

I think the biggest issue are 3 things; One, higher player counts means a less cooperative community. The more faces you see, the fewer are meaningful to you. Two, the more snouts the the trough, the faster it empties. Toughs being cities and towns, snouts being players. Three, ignorance of game mechanics, lots of people don't know that previously looted containers can be emptied for an immediate refill of loot.

I would say that since we're well above the intended player count, and there is hyper-contesting on loot areas, the best thing you can do for new players is help them travel. Give them 15 beer to help them run away from dogs, and to look for an area to settle down. Give them a mining hat to continue to see at night.

I would also suggest, when a new seed is created, H0tr0d or madman use the web map and check for cities within 1500m of the center point and list them in an announcement thread to help people make choices.

Exploring the map early on, especially with no beer, and with no guns, is probably the most painful part and most tedious aspect of a new seed or new release. Everyone's gotta log out at night, 25% of their hourly playtime is missing, it sucks.

Teknik · « **Reply #7 on:** April 16, 2016, 12:09:52 am »

Quote from: Gerick on April 15, 2016, 09:35:26 pm

...Exploring the map early on, especially with no beer, and with no guns, is probably the most painful part and most tedious aspect of a new seed or new release. Everyone's gotta log out at night, 25% of their hourly playtime is missing, it sucks.

This is a survival game. You don't HAVE to log out at night. This is a decision made by each player based on your own situations. Personally, I don't think a new player should be running to cities because you are ill equipped for cops, dogs, etc. Typically, you craft a stone axe (as stated in survival quest) make a bow, kill an animal, have food, make base. People tend to forget that starting out, you may KNOW where all the good items are and how to get them, but you don't have the rational means to do so safely. (This is a generalization, some players can raid a city as level 1 and be just fine).

The starting items shouldn't be added to make the game easier. It should be a representation of what you would start with if you found yourself in the middle of a Zombie Apocalypse.

guest215 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 16, 2016, 12:28:01 am »

The developers have not "balanced" the starting items since at least A5 when I started; and travel times were fixed b/c the map was Navezgane; all POIs were fixed within a smaller map. They didn't balance it for Random gen where we had larger maps with unknown POIs.

They changed things so you didn't necessarily have a 0,0 city which makes it even harder; I have worked to maintain that city to help players.

I am the one who has been trying things out to balance the starting kit; I added the grainAlcohol and antibiotics in 12.5 and deemed it OP. The coffee is to simulate people having some caffeinated beverage as well as help if you spawn in a rough spot; i.e. a bear nearby.

The reason I haven't messed with the other starting kit items is for continuity's sake.

Zcoins and vote points carry over; vote points convert to zcoins.

You can buy beer, pain

The point is I take every player's experience into account and I have learned what works and what doesn't over the years.

You either trust that and enjoy the game or you don't.

You aren't starting with 15 beer or a mining Helmet.

I have mulled over letting people start with a flashlight and that is the argument I would've made b/c it makes more sense than a torch.

And, as stated earlier, you aren't starting with antibiotics.

If you can find a roleplaying/good argument for having antibiotics I will consider it as I always do; but do not assume I have never considered this over the past 2 years.

The start of the game should be rough as this is a survival game.

I'd rather work on a new seed than type here; if you truly want to make my job easier give me an argument I can work with and let that be the admin appreciation.

Gerick · « **Reply #9 on:** April 16, 2016, 01:26:18 am »

Quote from: Teknik on April 16, 2016, 12:09:52 am

Quote from: Gerick on April 15, 2016, 09:35:26 pm
...Exploring the map early on, especially with no beer, and with no guns, is probably the most painful part and most tedious aspect of a new seed or new release. Everyone's gotta log out at night, 25% of their hourly playtime is missing, it sucks.

This is a survival game. You don't HAVE to log out at night. This is a decision made by each player based on your own situations. Personally, I don't think a new player should be running to cities because you are ill equipped for cops, dogs, etc. Typically, you craft a stone axe (as stated in survival quest) make a bow, kill an animal, have food, make base. People tend to forget that starting out, you may KNOW where all the good items are and how to get them, but you don't have the rational means to do so safely. (This is a generalization, some players can raid a city as level 1 and be just fine).

The starting items shouldn't be added to make the game easier. It should be a representation of what you would start with if you found yourself in the middle of a Zombie Apocalypse.

It being a survival game isn't an argument for anything. I could use the same argument to say you should start with nothing but a claim block or nothing but a survival knife. (closest analogy to a pocket knife.) So that's out as an argument. It's like saying it's "2016" in terms of meaninglessness.

My point about night play, is that if you're coming to the server as a new or returning player, you are fighting more advanced hordes because you're probably beyond the 7 day mark, and you would be lucky to log in with the server time being less than mid-day.

As far as new players avoiding cities, you need a pipe to have a forge. You're explicitly encouraged by game mechanics to go there to get past the first technology gate and to actually get your recipes. The city has more rewards and more risk for new players, old players have almost no risk but from milestone day hordes, and that's where they tend to get the more elite books and weapon parts. I definitely do not see cities as a place to avoid given that fact.

You'd have more of a point if they had a game mode where dying meant you were banned, or you lost recipes and levels entirely.

Don't mistake tediousness for harder. Harder would be zombies running during the day.

Please note this isn't directed at you H0tR0d. I'll actually reply to you with a second post.

CrazyGunner · « **Reply #10 on:** April 16, 2016, 06:01:15 am »

Quote from: Teknik on April 16, 2016, 12:09:52 am

Quote from: Gerick on April 15, 2016, 09:35:26 pm
...Exploring the map early on, especially with no beer, and with no guns, is probably the most painful part and most tedious aspect of a new seed or new release. Everyone's gotta log out at night, 25% of their hourly playtime is missing, it sucks.

This is a survival game. You don't HAVE to log out at night. This is a decision made by each player based on your own situations. Personally, I don't think a new player should be running to cities because you are ill equipped for cops, dogs, etc. Typically, you craft a stone axe (as stated in survival quest) make a bow, kill an animal, have food, make base. People tend to forget that starting out, you may KNOW where all the good items are and how to get them, but you don't have the rational means to do so safely. (This is a generalization, some players can raid a city as level 1 and be just fine).

The starting items shouldn't be added to make the game easier. It should be a representation of what you would start with if you found yourself in the middle of a Zombie Apocalypse.

I disagree. You do have to log out. I've tried surviving through the night way too many times, and every time I end up regretting it.
When I try to combat them, I die. If I don't fight and stay down in my basement, everything above ground is being destroyed, including reinforced concrete.

Until you got a very, very solid defence, you should just log during the night. Because here is the thing, even if you do stay logged in and stay perfectly quiet, there is nothing you can do anyway.

In the end it all comes down to those screamers, which are too overpowered right now.

Gerick · « **Reply #11 on:** April 16, 2016, 09:22:51 am »

Quote from: CrazyGunner on April 16, 2016, 06:01:15 am

Quote from: Teknik on April 16, 2016, 12:09:52 am
Quote from: Gerick on April 15, 2016, 09:35:26 pm
...Exploring the map early on, especially with no beer, and with no guns, is probably the most painful part and most tedious aspect of a new seed or new release. Everyone's gotta log out at night, 25% of their hourly playtime is missing, it sucks.

This is a survival game. You don't HAVE to log out at night. This is a decision made by each player based on your own situations. Personally, I don't think a new player should be running to cities because you are ill equipped for cops, dogs, etc. Typically, you craft a stone axe (as stated in survival quest) make a bow, kill an animal, have food, make base. People tend to forget that starting out, you may KNOW where all the good items are and how to get them, but you don't have the rational means to do so safely. (This is a generalization, some players can raid a city as level 1 and be just fine).

The starting items shouldn't be added to make the game easier. It should be a representation of what you would start with if you found yourself in the middle of a Zombie Apocalypse.
I disagree. You do have to log out. I've tried surviving through the night way too many times, and every time I end up regretting it.
When I try to combat them, I die. If I don't fight and stay down in my basement, everything above ground is being destroyed, including reinforced concrete.

Until you got a very, very solid defence, you should just log during the night. Because here is the thing, even if you do stay logged in and stay perfectly quiet, there is nothing you can do anyway.

In the end it all comes down to those screamers, which are too overpowered right now.

Well, you can chug a stamina enhancer and run for 15 minutes straight. Hope your W-finger doesn't get tired :p

guest215 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 16, 2016, 09:24:53 am »

You only have to log out "if"; everything is within context.

It is still a choice.

Saying you "should log out for the night" is also your opinion. Many may share that opinion and not all people will and not at all times.

The game isn't picking on one person; hordes go to different people.

The more people online the more spread around they get among players unless you just happen to have gotten the horde on horde night.

Feral zombies sense you, yes. This is nothing new.

Your opinion on screamers is noted in your other post and is also a suggestion.

Check the notes for 14.6 experimental, especially the part about screamers.

Topic closed.

And as far as the OP there will be no antibiotics in the starting "kit".

MADMAN · « **Reply #13 on:** April 16, 2016, 11:33:40 am »

Quote from: CrazyGunner on April 16, 2016, 06:01:15 am

Quote from: Teknik on April 16, 2016, 12:09:52 am
Quote from: Gerick on April 15, 2016, 09:35:26 pm
...Exploring the map early on, especially with no beer, and with no guns, is probably the most painful part and most tedious aspect of a new seed or new release. Everyone's gotta log out at night, 25% of their hourly playtime is missing, it sucks.

This is a survival game. You don't HAVE to log out at night. This is a decision made by each player based on your own situations. Personally, I don't think a new player should be running to cities because you are ill equipped for cops, dogs, etc. Typically, you craft a stone axe (as stated in survival quest) make a bow, kill an animal, have food, make base. People tend to forget that starting out, you may KNOW where all the good items are and how to get them, but you don't have the rational means to do so safely. (This is a generalization, some players can raid a city as level 1 and be just fine).

The starting items shouldn't be added to make the game easier. It should be a representation of what you would start with if you found yourself in the middle of a Zombie Apocalypse.
I disagree. You do have to log out. I've tried surviving through the night way too many times, and every time I end up regretting it.
When I try to combat them, I die. If I don't fight and stay down in my basement, everything above ground is being destroyed, including reinforced concrete.

Until you got a very, very solid defence, you should just log during the night. Because here is the thing, even if you do stay logged in and stay perfectly quiet, there is nothing you can do anyway.

In the end it all comes down to those screamers, which are too overpowered right now.

As I posted on another thread - I certainly understand your frustration but there is not much we can do on our end about this issue without breaking the game. As h0tr0d said, the developers have acknowledged this issue and they are working on an update to correct it. In the meantime, just do your best to play around the problem as the rest of us are doing. It sucks, I know but there is little that we can do until the update comes out. Hopefully they release it soon. Good luck!

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Author Topic: Starting Item Suggestion (Read 548 times)

Thoddius

Starting Item Suggestion

poppawolf

Re: Starting Item Suggestion

Ammit

Re: Starting Item Suggestion

Patchup

Re: Starting Item Suggestion

guest215

Re: Starting Item Suggestion

Thoddius

Re: Starting Item Suggestion

Gerick

Re: Starting Item Suggestion

Teknik

Re: Starting Item Suggestion

guest215

Re: Starting Item Suggestion

Gerick

Re: Starting Item Suggestion

CrazyGunner

Re: Starting Item Suggestion

Gerick

Re: Starting Item Suggestion

guest215

Re: Starting Item Suggestion

MADMAN

Re: Starting Item Suggestion

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